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Ben C
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Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:21 pm |
 Post subject: Re: printing "sidenotes" in IE6/7 |
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On 2007-04-26, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
| Quote: | Scripsit dorayme:
[...]
When
one finds it convenient to use a table, it is not too hard to
find arguments. I thought yours not too bad. I still think mine
was good.
I think yours is much worse. There is no correspondence between the
navigation "column" and the content "column". The navigation column could be
described as one by N matrix, but it would be rather illogical to consider
the content as another "column", except purely for layout.
My table, on the other hand, exhibits genuine tabular relationships: the
text and the notes run in parallel. Each note relates to piece particular
text (in a cell). What could be _more_ tabular (assuming you haven't got the
odd idea that only numbers can be tabulated)?
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For me the essence of a table is that it represents some function of two
inputs. So, for example, if I have "foods" in the rows, and "vitamins"
in the columns, I can lookup how much vitamin A in a carrot, or C in an
apple by reading the values of the function from the table.
Annotating text with notes doesn't really have this characteristic,
although you could probably stretch the idea.
But, to answer your question, the table of vitamins and foods is
something that is more tabular. |
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Jukka K. Korpela
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Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:23 pm |
| Post subject: Re: printing "sidenotes" in IE6/7 |
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Scripsit JWS:
| Quote: | I found out what was the matter now: as selector I had used the
"its child" property:
div > p {margin: 0;}
but it seems that IE does not understand "its child".
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IE 6 does not recognize the selector div > p, so it ignores the entire rule.
IE 7 recognizes it, though only in "Standards Mode".
| Quote: | So wherever possible I now avoid "its child";
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That's a good practical principle at present.
| Quote: | Yes.. it also seems IE does not understand the p+p ("two
consecutive paragraphs") selector, which handles the "first
paragraph" problem automatically.
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Similarly, p+p is supported in IE 7 in Standards Mode, not otherwise in IE.
| Quote: | I do not have an ideological position in this, but.. tables are so
"square". If a sidenote is taller than its accompanying paragraph,
display of the next paragraph is pushed down until the sidenote
finishes. This is not so nice; sidenotes waste space (or paper)
anyway, and such wastage should not be made worse if it can be
avoided.
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That's a problem with tables, and an asset. But you could organize the table
so that one cell in the left column contains _one or more_ paragraphs,
including all paragraphs before the next paragraph to which a note is
attached. This would imply that a gap is created in the left column only if
you have some relatively short text with a long sidenote and then
(immediately or after short texts) some other text that has a sidenote. In
such a case a gap is more or less necessary anyone.
This would been slightly illogical markup, since you would have
<tr><td>text</td> <td>note</td> </tr>
so that "text" contains first the paragraph that the note relates to, then
perhaps one or more other paragraphs. In an attempt to please the purists
(including my puristic self), we might write as follows:
<tr><td>text 1</td> <td rowspan="2">note</td> </tr>
<tr><td>text 2</td> </tr>
but I don't think it would really be an improvement in logical structure.
--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ |
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Rod Speed
Guest
Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:52 pm |
| Post subject: Re: A fascist America, in 10 easy steps |
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Useful Info <useful_inf@yahoo.com> wrote
| Quote: | Rod Speed wrote
kswymford@.com wrote
To make a police state you need to follow just 10 steps.
You wouldnt know what a police state was if it bit you on your lard arse, child.
Bush/Cheney have pursued each of them.
Pig ignorant lie.
Read the full story via
http://Muvy.org
No thank, its just completely mindless pig ignorant shit/lies.
Perhaps you should read it.
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No point when it makes that stupid claim about the US currently.
And I certainly wouldnt produce any click revenue for the OP anyway.
| Quote: | I am afraid that it just may be over your power of comprehension, however.
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Pathetic. |
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Bergamot
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Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:57 pm |
| Post subject: Re: lijst probleem |
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roelof wrote:
| Quote: |
Regarding the javascript, i don't know any menu system with menu and
submenu's containing some 30 - 40 items without javascript which will
work properly without javascript and aren't to big.
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A submenu with 30-40 items is too big, with or without JavaScript. Make
a site map instead.
--
Berg |
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Chris Mattern
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Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:33 am |
| Post subject: Re: A fascist America, in 10 easy steps |
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In article <4630b9a3$0$9942$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, kswymford@.com wrote:
| Quote: | Perhaps you should read it. I am afraid that it just may be over your
power of comprehension, however.
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Browser technology is security weak; I don't like going to sites I
don't trust, like those run by paranoid conspiracy nuts. Not much
into giving you a click count, either.
--
Christopher Mattern
NOTICE
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Your noticing it has been noted
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JWS
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:44 am |
| Post subject: Re: printing "sidenotes" in IE6/7 |
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Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
| Quote: | That's a problem with tables, and an asset. But you could
organize the table so that one cell in the left column contains
_one or more_ paragraphs, including all paragraphs before the
next paragraph to which a note is attached.
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Well.. all things considered.. I've come to a conclusion.
The content of my page is Linux-oriented; only about 14 % of
the visitors use IE. I'll redesign it to make it IE-compatible
wherever I can (like avoiding ">" and "+" in selectors, by
creating some extra classes).
But changing from css layout to table layout, just to enable
printing in IE, is too much (i.e. too much work now, and too much
work in the future while maintaining the page). I'll just use a
"conditional comment" (if that's what it's called) to make
everything "ragged right" for IE users, with @media print. That
will produce acceptable (although IMHO not optimal) printing
behaviour for these users.
Thanks all, and especially Yucca, for the stimulating discussion.
Jan |
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Fred
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:59 am |
| Post subject: Re: Fading Rotation Script That Displays HTML |
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On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:57:58 -0500, Bergamot <bergamot@visi.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Fred wrote:
Well, I'd like to have 3 or 4 separate text messages that will sit on
a backround image. The text will fade (I'd like the fade to be slow
and smooth) from one message to the next.
Please don't do this.
What if the user isn't done reading a message before it starts
disappearing? Do you think they'll have the patience to wait for it to
come around again? What if they are done reading it long before the next
one starts coming in? Do you want them to sit there and wait until *you*
think it's time to continue?
If you want something to be read, don't make it a moving target.
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Berg,
I think your are correct in your statement.
How about presenting a diferent text message on page refresh.
How would you approach that idea? |
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edonline
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Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:14 am |
| Post subject: Re: A fascist America, in 10 easy steps |
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"Chris Mattern" <syscjm@sumire.eng.sun.com> wrote in message
news:1331vk2g6306d4f@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | In article <4630b9a3$0$9942$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, kswymford@.com
wrote:
Perhaps you should read it. I am afraid that it just may be over your
power of comprehension, however.
Browser technology is security weak; I don't like going to sites I
don't trust, like those run by paranoid conspiracy nuts. Not much
into giving you a click count, either.
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FWIW, the piece had been printed in a few news sources, such as the
Guardian. no worries about giving someone's personal blog or website any
clicks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html |
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Neo Geshel
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:28 am |
| Post subject: Re: css border clipping differently in ff and ie |
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eggsurplus wrote:
| Quote: | I'm working on a slide down horizontal menu and I'm having issues
getting the border around the submenu to display correctly. I'm trying
to get a 1px border on the left and right side and an image on the
bottom for rounded corners. I finally got it to display correctly in
FF but now the right border is 2px instead of 1px in IE because of the
way I had to clip 2px off the right for FF. Any ideas on how to adjust
this to make it possible? Thanks.
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To the comments made by others, I would also add: look into external
style sheets
(http://www.google.ca/search?q=external+style+sheets&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a),
or (if this is an experimental stage with just one web page) try placing
your CSS into a style element inside the head element. Then, once you
get the design down pat and want to extend it to an entire site, move
the CSS into an external file.
Cheers.
...Geshel
--
*********************************************************************
My return e-mail address is an automatically monitored spam honeypot.
Do not send e-mail there unless you wish to be reported as a spammer.
Please send all e-mail to my first name at my last name dot org, with
a subject-line of “NEWSGROUP REPLY FOR NEO GESHEL” (all uppercase).
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roelof
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:49 am |
| Post subject: Re: lijst probleem |
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On 26 apr, 19:57, Bergamot <berga...@visi.com> wrote:
| Quote: | roelof wrote:
Regarding the javascript, i don't know any menu system with menu and
submenu's containing some 30 - 40 items without javascript which will
work properly without javascript and aren't to big.
A submenu with 30-40 items is too big, with or without JavaScript. Make
a site map instead.
--
Berg
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No,
The menu has 7 headmenu choices where 3 has 12 submenu items.
Regards,
Roelof |
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Chris Mattern
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:05 am |
| Post subject: Re: A fascist America, in 10 easy steps |
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In article <afmdnYWdMYCqlazbnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com>, edonline wrote:
| Quote: |
"Chris Mattern" <syscjm@sumire.eng.sun.com> wrote in message
news:1331vk2g6306d4f@corp.supernews.com...
In article <4630b9a3$0$9942$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, kswymford@.com
wrote:
Perhaps you should read it. I am afraid that it just may be over your
power of comprehension, however.
Browser technology is security weak; I don't like going to sites I
don't trust, like those run by paranoid conspiracy nuts. Not much
into giving you a click count, either.
FWIW, the piece had been printed in a few news sources, such as the
Guardian. no worries about giving someone's personal blog or website any
clicks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html
Nope, doesn't work. |
No number 2. Guantanamo is not a gulag. At best, even Naomi can
only argue that it *will become* a gulag, and I don't see that
happening. They're actually trying to dismantle the place; it's
become too much of a PR disaster.
No number 3. She really reaches here. Neither security companies
or Republican poll watchers even begin to qualify as the new
Brownshirts.
Very weak number 5. She gives no evidence of real harrassment
of citizen's groups, only some evidence of surveillance.
No number 6. She gives absolutely no evidence of arbitrary
detention on any scale, only two isolated incidents, at
least one of which isn't even an arbitrary detention since
authorities apparently at one point honestly believed Yee
was guilty; they brought charges. The case fell apart,
yes. There was good amount of incompetence to go around,
but I don't see any intention to arbitrarily detain Yee.
Makes claims for number 7, but except for the firing of
eight US attorneys, offers no evidence or even any details.
No number 8. If Bush is trying to control the press, all
I can say is he should demand his money back, since he's
not getting it done. Even Naomi admits he can't do it.
No number 10. Bush shows a disturbing tendency to want to
weasel out of laws he doesn't like, but the fact is there
still rule of law here. I firmly believe that if real
evidence surfaced that Bush actually broke the law,
there would be an impeachment.
In the end, even Naomi admits there can't be a fascist
takeover like Hitler or Mussolini here. Instead, she
says, it'll be done another way. So why is she even
trying to draw analogies to Hitler and Mussolini when
she herself says it wouldn't happen that way? Why not
draw analogies with where it *did* happen the way she says?
Oh, yeah, that's right, there aren't any. Besides,
proclaiming Bush as the new Hitler is *so* much better
for making good headlines. Makes the left feel so
warm and fuzzy inside.
--
Christopher Mattern
NOTICE
Thank you for noticing this new notice
Your noticing it has been noted
And will be reported to the authorities |
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dorayme
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:26 am |
| Post subject: Re: IE7 - annoying and unexplainable horzontal scroll |
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In article <slrnf30k2j.5hq.spamspam@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
| Quote: | On 2007-04-26, dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
In article <f0o39r$5hb$1@aioe.org>,
Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> wrote:
But of course bugs don't have to follow any logic...
This is a tricky question. At the level of computer programming
and unexpected side effects on the machine, there is very likely
a logic in the sense of a deterministic algorithm: sets of
circumstances, which if repeated, will trigger the effect. The
bug label is due to its unwanted effect and often to its hidden
causal paths.
It is not out of the question that some things happen as
surprising unintended effects in other than this algorithmic way,
as an instability that is sensitive to all sorts of dynamical
processes, so special appearing, that it falls outside the usual
deterministic causal chains that earthlings understand.
That's true, but the distinction is usually between a bug and a
non-conformance. IE taking width to mean outer margin width (or whatever
it does take it to mean) is often called a bug even though it's
obviously intentional. There is still some logic to it, it's just not
what the spec says.
Usually you just call it a bug if it's something that ought to get
fixed, whether it's a correct implementation of the wrong thing or a
wrong attempt at the right thing.
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I am sure you are generally right as a description of common
speech.
The distinction that I was pointing out would then be applied to
within the class of bugs. At least the ones that do follow a
known logic can be dealt with if enough effort is assigned. Those
that do not follow a known logic can be split into a further two
types. One, those that do follow a logic but not a known one.
Two, those that don't follow a logic that can ever be learned in
an individual case.
--
dorayme |
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Ben C
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:00 am |
| Post subject: Re: IE7 - annoying and unexplainable horzontal scroll |
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On 2007-04-26, dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | The distinction that I was pointing out would then be applied to
within the class of bugs. At least the ones that do follow a
known logic can be dealt with if enough effort is assigned. Those
that do not follow a known logic can be split into a further two
types. One, those that do follow a logic but not a known one.
Two, those that don't follow a logic that can ever be learned in
an individual case.
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Do you mean logic in the sense of something that the manifestation of
the bug follows? In other words, something related to reproducibility?
In theory the logic behind any bug is there is in the program source
text. In practice if you just read the source text you will find a bug
every few lines but never the one you're looking for. |
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dorayme
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:25 am |
| Post subject: Re: printing "sidenotes" in IE6/7 |
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In article <Z15Yh.43990$ud2.33782@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
| Quote: | Scripsit dorayme:
In article <5RPXh.43509$Fz3.14261@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi>,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
Ages ago I gave an argument (in response to Jonathan Little which
no doubt very few if any would have understood or appreciated) to
show that there _was_ a tabular relationship between a side
navigation column and a right content column
Sounds like a hopeless case.
when taking account
the website as a whole and not merely an individual page.
A page is a page. Either your page contains tabular data, or it doesn't.
When
one finds it convenient to use a table, it is not too hard to
find arguments. I thought yours not too bad. I still think mine
was good.
I think yours is much worse. There is no correspondence between the
navigation "column" and the content "column". The navigation column could be
described as one by N matrix, but it would be rather illogical to consider
the content as another "column", except purely for layout.
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I imagine almost everyone thinks my defence of a left col as
navigation and a right col as content as tabular is bad and
hopeless! I think it is still a thing of truth and beauty and
general unimportance. So much so, that I will repeat it here and
make it clearer for anyone interested.
First, let me say I do not use tables for such on any new
projects - and that I think it generally a bad idea. But it is
not quite as bad as some people think and certainly not for the
reason of the mantra that tables on a per page basis should show
a clear tabular relationship across the table row by row etc as
in classic paradigms.
Your statement "A page is a page. Either your page contains
tabular data, or it doesn't." is a statement about what you see
as crucially relevant. My view is that there is a deeper table
that will simply not be seen if you stick so solidly to the earth
this way. Dr Johnson once kicked a stone and said "I refute it
thus!" when challenging Bishop Berkeley about the nature of the
material world. It is generally considered a poor argument in
spite of the good doctor likely being more right than the good
bishop.
The argument is quite simple but it requires one to see that the
real and far more important table in a site that has 2 cols, left
nav and right content is a three dimensional one and is as big in
one dimension as the site itself. Once you see it this way,
suddenly there is grip for hanging a tabular relationship.
In the left col: about Deborah, about Fred, about George with
"about Deborah" highlighted in some way to indicate current. In
the right col, spiel about Deborah. Now, if you merely look at
the Deborah page, you will say that the "about Fred" link has no
tabular relationship to the actual right content. Indeed, you
would be right. But in the table I am thinking of, this link has
a direct tabular relationship to the right content on the "about
Fred" page. All the pages are part of the 3-D table.
I know some people will say it is ridiculous to redefine the
common meaning of table in this way, that it is a trick. But in
truth, when authors use a table for this particular layout
purpose, I say it is more in accordance with what they are
actually doing, it is a better description, a truer account of
their general reasonableness.
All this is not to be confused with some sort of licence to use
tables as layout generally. In so many convoluted table designs,
no such defence as above is available and I have no reason to
concoct one.
--
dorayme |
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dorayme
Guest
Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:40 am |
Post subject: Re: Image maps within
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In article <59bj1cF2j4oe2U1@mid.individual.net>,
Bergamot <bergamot@visi.com> wrote:
| Quote: | dorayme wrote:
I have been thinking lately that there is an
argument for making alt text somehow default to the img src name.
Oh yeah, "spacer.gif" is so useful.
This is generally a very bad idea. Better to have blank alt for a
default, but that is generally a bad idea as well.
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Well, at least I gave some indication of argument for it in the
thread. I do not see any argument for yours. There is a sarcastic
reference to one obviously unimpressive result of my view. But,
of course, sarcasm does not make for a good balance sheet of pros
over cons.
--
dorayme |
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